Posted by Stealth on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @ 03:25pm
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New HP laptop: 24 hours on one charge

Hewlett-Packard Co., the world?s largest personal-computer maker, introduced a notebook PC that can run for as long as 24 hours on a single battery charge. Customers would have to buy an optional battery, a special display and a so-called solid-state hard-disk drive to get the extended running time, Hewlett-Packard said. With those options, the EliteBook 6930p costs about $2,200. After an online discount, the price will be $1,816. Hewlett-Packard has added new PCs over the last two months to capture consumer demand for notebooks and extend its lead over Dell Inc. The new notebook will compete with Dell?s Latitude E6400, introduced in August, which can run for as long as 19 hours on a single charge.

yeah, but your talking about not doing a whole lot. special this and that and all that jazz.

BTW - I was looking at these laptops yesterday at work. SEXY. I really am digging on that 13". I like the 12", but no backlight keyboard so no go. I love that about my MBP. To bad configured it's over 2K. DAMN THAT.

Posted by Krux on Tuesday September 23, 2008 @ 03:39pm
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BTW - I was looking at these laptops yesterday at work. SEXY. I really am digging on that 13". I like the 12", but no backlight keyboard so no go. I love that about my MBP. To bad configured it's over 2K. DAMN THAT.

I just don't like the resolution. I have 1280 x 800 on my work laptop, and it just seems I never have enough desktop space to do anything.

Posted by Stealth on Monday September 29, 2008 @ 02:58pm
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BTW - I was looking at these laptops yesterday at work. SEXY. I really am digging on that 13". I like the 12", but no backlight keyboard so no go. I love that about my MBP. To bad configured it's over 2K. DAMN THAT.

I just don't like the resolution. I have 1280 x 800 on my work laptop, and it just seems I never have enough desktop space to do anything.

it's a small netbook type laptop. that's not a bad resolution for a 12 or 13" screen. Better then the resolution on the 10" ones..

Posted by voltaic on Tuesday September 16, 2008 @ 01:10pm
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Newegg has a 1.5Tb Seagate SATA hard drive on sale for $190. This gets into a conversation I was having with Unicron the other day. But yeah. Lots of effing space.

Posted by voltaic on Thursday September 25, 2008 @ 10:12pm
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1Tb internal SATA drives for $120 out the door (no rebate BS, free shipping).

http://slickdeals.net/?pno=14066&lno=1&afsrc=1

Posted by Stealth on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @ 11:50am
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Newegg has a 1.5Tb Seagate SATA hard drive on sale for $190. This gets into a conversation I was having with Unicron the other day. But yeah. Lots of effing space.

wow.. 1.5GB. Humm.. 1.5 * 8, carry the 1, drop the remainder... right then, 10.5 TB. W0000000000000000000000000000T.

that's just nuts. I need at least another year before I start walking down that road.

Posted by unicron on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @ 12:19pm
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Newegg has a 1.5Tb Seagate SATA hard drive on sale for $190. This gets into a conversation I was having with Unicron the other day. But yeah. Lots of effing space.

wow.. 1.5GB. Humm.. 1.5 * 8, carry the 1, drop the remainder... right then, 10.5 TB. W0000000000000000000000000000T.

that's just nuts. I need at least another year before I start walking down that road.

Um, dude....what? I may be wrong, but I'm completely not. Wouldn't 1.5TB be 1500GB?

I don't even know how you got those numbers. You are rocking some amazing combination of spelling errors, grammar fuck ups, and alphanumeric dyslexia.

Posted by Stealth on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @ 12:29pm
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Newegg has a 1.5Tb Seagate SATA hard drive on sale for $190. This gets into a conversation I was having with Unicron the other day. But yeah. Lots of effing space.

wow.. 1.5GB. Humm.. 1.5 * 8, carry the 1, drop the remainder... right then, 10.5 TB. W0000000000000000000000000000T.

that's just nuts. I need at least another year before I start walking down that road.

Um, dude....what? I may be wrong, but I'm completely not. Wouldn't 1.5TB be 1500GB?

I don't even know how you got those numbers. You are rocking some amazing combination of spelling errors, grammar fuck ups, and alphanumeric dyslexia.

8 drives in the array. RAID5 means 7 drives of storage space .. 1.5*7=10.5tb on the server. Not _everything_ I do is messed up.

Posted by voltaic on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @ 09:30pm
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8 drives in the array. RAID5 means 7 drives of storage space .. 1.5*7=10.5tb on the server. Not _everything_ I do is messed up.

Fair enough, but even I was about to break out my calculator and try to figure out WTF.com you were doing before you said "RAID5". Heheh.

Posted by Stealth on Thursday September 18, 2008 @ 01:25pm
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8 drives in the array. RAID5 means 7 drives of storage space .. 1.5*7=10.5tb on the server. Not _everything_ I do is messed up.

Fair enough, but even I was about to break out my calculator and try to figure out WTF.com you were doing before you said "RAID5". Heheh.

I went to upper math classes too.. i got some crazy shit.. it'll blow your mind!

Posted by voltaic on Thursday September 18, 2008 @ 01:41pm
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I went to upper math classes too.. i got some crazy shit.. it'll blow your mind!

To be honest, the multiply by eight is what threw me off; I thought you were converting from bytes to bits for some bizarre reason. So then I read it like you were trumpeting "10.5 TBits!" and I was like "yeah, so what?" Heheh

Posted by Caliber on Thursday September 18, 2008 @ 05:16pm
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I went to upper math classes too.. i got some crazy shit.. it'll blow your mind!

To be honest, the multiply by eight is what threw me off; I thought you were converting from bytes to bits for some bizarre reason. So then I read it like you were trumpeting "10.5 TBits!" and I was like "yeah, so what?" Heheh

1.5GB

that was what threw me off

Posted by unicron on Friday September 19, 2008 @ 12:29am
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I went to upper math classes too.. i got some crazy shit.. it'll blow your mind!

To be honest, the multiply by eight is what threw me off; I thought you were converting from bytes to bits for some bizarre reason. So then I read it like you were trumpeting "10.5 TBits!" and I was like "yeah, so what?" Heheh

1.5GB

that was what threw me off

It's what threw EVERYONE off. A completely unknown, crucial piece of info necessary to make the post worth a lick of sense.

It's like saying a riddle "A man is stranded in the Gobi desert. 5 second later, he is in New York. How is this possible?" and the answer being "He had a teleporter!"

Posted by MadArab on Friday September 19, 2008 @ 05:18am
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It's what threw EVERYONE off. A completely unknown, crucial piece of info necessary to make the post worth a lick of sense.

It's like saying a riddle "A man is stranded in the Gobi desert. 5 second later, he is in New York. How is this possible?" and the answer being "He had a teleporter!"

Seriously? While his first explanation was a little off, I think it was obvious what he was going to do with the resulting size he gave.

Posted by Stealth on Monday September 29, 2008 @ 02:59pm
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It's what threw EVERYONE off. A completely unknown, crucial piece of info necessary to make the post worth a lick of sense.

It's like saying a riddle "A man is stranded in the Gobi desert. 5 second later, he is in New York. How is this possible?" and the answer being "He had a teleporter!"

Seriously? While his first explanation was a little off, I think it was obvious what he was going to do with the resulting size he gave.

i really didn't think it was that hard. Everyone knows my server specs. I'm not going to use just one.. it's like a can of pringles up in this bitch!

Posted by voltaic on Monday September 29, 2008 @ 09:59pm
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i really didn't think it was that hard. Everyone knows my server specs. I'm not going to use just one.. it's like a can of pringles up in this bitch!

It has ridges?

Oh wait, that's Ruffles... shit...

Posted by voltaic on Saturday September 20, 2008 @ 08:41am
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Seriously? While his first explanation was a little off, I think it was obvious what he was going to do with the resulting size he gave.

Damn Europeans all think alike.

Posted by MadArab on Sunday September 21, 2008 @ 07:10pm
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Damn Europeans all think alike.

Are you comparing me to Kodrik? He's the only other Eurotrash here... Stealth just pretends to be Eurotrash... it's so hip these days to hate on the US.

Posted by Stealth on Monday September 29, 2008 @ 03:03pm
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Damn Europeans all think alike.

Are you comparing me to Kodrik? He's the only other Eurotrash here... Stealth just pretends to be Eurotrash... it's so hip these days to hate on the US.

So much hate.. I don't hate in the US as a whole.. just the bits and pieces that SUCK. You know.. like having to live with euro while getting paid in USD and watching that shit fall like a rock. That makes me hate.

Posted by voltaic on Monday September 22, 2008 @ 07:27pm
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Damn Europeans all think alike.

Are you comparing me to Kodrik? He's the only other Eurotrash here...

Only you and Stealth were in this thread, you saying you more or less got what the hell SPS was talking about.

Stealth just pretends to be Eurotrash... it's so hip these days to hate on the US.

All you bastards are the same to me.

Posted by MadArab on Tuesday September 23, 2008 @ 09:14am
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Are you comparing me to Kodrik? He's the only other Eurotrash here...

Only you and Stealth were in this thread, you saying you more or less got what the hell SPS was talking about.

I think you just have a problem with... <cough> math </cough>

Posted by voltaic on Tuesday September 23, 2008 @ 09:37pm
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I think you just have a problem with... <cough> math </cough>

Yes.

Posted by Caliber on Monday September 22, 2008 @ 01:32am
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Damn Europeans all think alike.

Are you comparing me to Kodrik? He's the only other Eurotrash here... Stealth just pretends to be Eurotrash... it's so hip these days to hate on the US.

I had a broad come to my door today asking me to vote for Obama. I was really tempted to say "oh, well since you asked so nicely, sure, I will vote for your preferred candidate..."

This is why I don't vote in presidential elections. I sometimes wonder if its like throwing in your lot with the special olympics kids...

That's my hip and edgy hatin on america(n politics) for this year ;)

Posted by Caliber on Friday September 19, 2008 @ 03:22pm
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It's what threw EVERYONE off. A completely unknown, crucial piece of info necessary to make the post worth a lick of sense.

It's like saying a riddle "A man is stranded in the Gobi desert. 5 second later, he is in New York. How is this possible?" and the answer being "He had a teleporter!"

Seriously? While his first explanation was a little off, I think it was obvious what he was going to do with the resulting size he gave.

hence why I didn't say anything at first, but then he and volt went into a 27 post dialogue on new math and I felt the original faux pas must be voiced ;)

Posted by Krux on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @ 01:24am
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Newegg has a 1.5Tb Seagate SATA hard drive on sale for $190. This gets into a conversation I was having with Unicron the other day. But yeah. Lots of effing space.

Nice. I want one, or four.

Posted by MadArab on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @ 04:57am
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Nice. I want one, or four.

Yeah... must resist!

Posted by Krux on Monday September 15, 2008 @ 09:25pm
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New HP laptop: 24 hours on one charge

Hewlett-Packard Co., the world?s largest personal-computer maker, introduced a notebook PC that can run for as long as 24 hours on a single battery charge. Customers would have to buy an optional battery, a special display and a so-called solid-state hard-disk drive to get the extended running time, Hewlett-Packard said. With those options, the EliteBook 6930p costs about $2,200. After an online discount, the price will be $1,816. Hewlett-Packard has added new PCs over the last two months to capture consumer demand for notebooks and extend its lead over Dell Inc. The new notebook will compete with Dell?s Latitude E6400, introduced in August, which can run for as long as 19 hours on a single charge.

Interestingly enough, my first post, unveiled an undiscovered bug in the THCNET software. That being, if you make new thread where the title is just a number, clicking on it brings up the article number in the title text.

Posted by Caliber on Monday September 15, 2008 @ 09:45pm
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New HP laptop: 24 hours on one charge

Hewlett-Packard Co., the world?s largest personal-computer maker, introduced a notebook PC that can run for as long as 24 hours on a single battery charge. Customers would have to buy an optional battery, a special display and a so-called solid-state hard-disk drive to get the extended running time, Hewlett-Packard said. With those options, the EliteBook 6930p costs about $2,200. After an online discount, the price will be $1,816. Hewlett-Packard has added new PCs over the last two months to capture consumer demand for notebooks and extend its lead over Dell Inc. The new notebook will compete with Dell?s Latitude E6400, introduced in August, which can run for as long as 19 hours on a single charge.

Interestingly enough, my first post, unveiled an undiscovered bug in the THCNET software. That being, if you make new thread where the title is just a number, clicking on it brings up the article number in the title text.

Someone should complain to the management

Posted by Krux on Monday September 15, 2008 @ 09:58pm
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Someone should complain to the management

I submitted a bug report.

Posted by unicron on Tuesday September 16, 2008 @ 12:43am
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Someone should complain to the management

I submitted a bug report.

The page is free, but they fuck you on support. That's how they get you.

Posted by Stealth on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @ 11:52am
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Someone should complain to the management

I submitted a bug report.

The page is free, but they fuck you on support. That's how they get you.

the downfall of capitalism.. ain't it a bitch. Maybe THC can get some of that fed money before it goes under too.

Posted by Caliber on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @ 02:07pm
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Someone should complain to the management

I submitted a bug report.

The page is free, but they fuck you on support. That's how they get you.

the downfall of capitalism.. ain't it a bitch. Maybe THC can get some of that fed money before it goes under too.

I kinda wish i could default on my house loan and get bailed out... that would be way cool ;)

Posted by Stealth on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @ 03:23pm
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Someone should complain to the management

I submitted a bug report.

The page is free, but they fuck you on support. That's how they get you.

the downfall of capitalism.. ain't it a bitch. Maybe THC can get some of that fed money before it goes under too.

I kinda wish i could default on my house loan and get bailed out... that would be way cool ;)

yeah.. that wouldn't suck.

I'm actually in the process, or at least on and off, of helping my sister get a house. She's gotten a divorce recently and hasn't worked in the past year, so she has no credit, so I'm co-signing, or at least, looking at the options. There's a lot of crap involved with getting a house, and with all the crap going on right now.. I'm not to tickled at the idea of the all the banks going under. that's what they get for always putting the mighty fucking dollar first.

So I'm reading this article.. and we're going to spend 60 billion+ to bail out AIG.. and the head dude.. the guy in charge.. if he quits or gets fired, the fucker still walks home with like 6 ot 7 mil. that is what's wrong with our fucking system.

Posted by voltaic on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @ 09:32pm
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so I'm co-signing

Fuck that.

I'm not to tickled at the idea of the all the banks going under. that's what they get for always putting the mighty fucking dollar first.

Banks aren't the problem, investment firms are. And name one for-profit business that doesn't put the mighty fucking dollar first.

that is what's wrong with our fucking system.

There are many things wrong with the system, which contributed to what is going on right now. My friend, I'm here to tell you that Joe Fucking Citizen is public enemy #1. And I don't mean in some college sophomore "get out the vote" way, either.

Posted by Stealth on Thursday September 18, 2008 @ 02:18pm
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Volt - Quick question - what's your take on Globalization, WTO and the like?

Posted by voltaic on Thursday September 18, 2008 @ 04:24pm
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I have absolutely no problem with any facet of it.

Posted by Stealth on Thursday September 18, 2008 @ 01:47pm
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so I'm co-signing

Fuck that.

Well, I'm not just signing everything. I am checking out my sisters bills and what the divorce is giving her and making sure she can make the payments. You wouldn't help your brother like that if you could?

I'm not to tickled at the idea of the all the banks going under. that's what they get for always putting the mighty fucking dollar first.

Banks aren't the problem, investment firms are. And name one for-profit business that doesn't put the mighty fucking dollar first.

Let me rephrase... Yes, every business exists to make a profit, yes, but not everyone will do that to the extent of HURTING their workers, society or being overly fucking greedy about it. Want an example, here's one I read about last week: http://www.economist.com/obituary/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12000749 .
Republican or not, globalisation was lost on him. He insisted that his shirts were manufactured in America. Sure, it cost more than getting them sewn in China; but if Chinese people made them, that would take jobs from Americans and mean they couldn?t buy his shirts anyway..

That's the stuff I'm talking about. Taking care of your works and not just paying the CEO/board over and over and over again. Big business has a responsibility that extends beyond the spreadsheets. I'm sure other small companies are doing this (it tends to stop once you get a board and VC/investors start looking for a way to milk something for all it's worth).

that is what's wrong with our fucking system.

There are many things wrong with the system, which contributed to what is going on right now. My friend, I'm here to tell you that Joe Fucking Citizen is public enemy #1. And I don't mean in some college sophomore "get out the vote" way, either.

Maybe I'm part of the problem then.. maybe all this is good for us and I just don't understand. But from my POV.. this is a mess. Let the whole think fall, let people start over rebuild and try and do it again, maybe they will learn from their mistakes, maybe not. But the only this that all this business saving does is delay the failure and put more billions of tax and budget money that we don't have, but that money to places that we can't us, don't benefit most americans and still only leads to continued failure of other systems. Great way to spend the money.

Posted by voltaic on Friday September 19, 2008 @ 08:55am
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Let me rephrase... Yes, every business exists to make a profit, yes, but not everyone will do that to the extent of HURTING their workers, society or being overly fucking greedy about it. Want an example, here's one I read about last week: http://www.economist.com/obituary/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12000749 .
Republican or not, globalisation was lost on him. He insisted that his shirts were manufactured in America. Sure, it cost more than getting them sewn in China; but if Chinese people made them, that would take jobs from Americans and mean they couldn?t buy his shirts anyway..

That's the stuff I'm talking about. Taking care of your works and not just paying the CEO/board over and over and over again. Big business has a responsibility that extends beyond the spreadsheets. I'm sure other small companies are doing this (it tends to stop once you get a board and VC/investors start looking for a way to milk something for all it's worth).

On this topic, let me ask a related question: do you think it's OK for workers to lose jobs due to technology? Let's say the analog telephone switch operators, all of whom lost their jobs when some smarty-pants came along and invented digital phone switching. What were the businesses responsibilities to these workers? Should they have been kept employed while the computers went unused? How about car assembling, much of which is now done by robots? How about coal-powered train mechanics? Horse and buggy repairmen? I mean sure, there are probably very specialized niches for these jobs now, but as a whole each one has been wiped out.

My point is that if you are OK with outsourcing to technology (and I suspect you are ;) then why are you against outsourcing to other people? Doesn't this make job loss and turnover almost seem... gulp... normal and, in fact, desirable?

Posted by Stealth on Monday September 29, 2008 @ 03:22pm
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Let me rephrase... Yes, every business exists to make a profit, yes, but not everyone will do that to the extent of HURTING their workers, society or being overly fucking greedy about it. Want an example, here's one I read about last week: http://www.economist.com/obituary/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12000749 .
Republican or not, globalisation was lost on him. He insisted that his shirts were manufactured in America. Sure, it cost more than getting them sewn in China; but if Chinese people made them, that would take jobs from Americans and mean they couldn?t buy his shirts anyway..

That's the stuff I'm talking about. Taking care of your works and not just paying the CEO/board over and over and over again. Big business has a responsibility that extends beyond the spreadsheets. I'm sure other small companies are doing this (it tends to stop once you get a board and VC/investors start looking for a way to milk something for all it's worth).

On this topic, let me ask a related question: do you think it's OK for workers to lose jobs due to technology? Let's say the analog telephone switch operators, all of whom lost their jobs when some smarty-pants came along and invented digital phone switching. What were the businesses responsibilities to these workers? Should they have been kept employed while the computers went unused? How about car assembling, much of which is now done by robots? How about coal-powered train mechanics? Horse and buggy repairmen? I mean sure, there are probably very specialized niches for these jobs now, but as a whole each one has been wiped out.

My point is that if you are OK with outsourcing to technology (and I suspect you are ;) then why are you against outsourcing to other people? Doesn't this make job loss and turnover almost seem... gulp... normal and, in fact, desirable?

Humm.. that's a really interesting point. I've talked with other about how to innovation and modern tech is a good thing and i think it should happen (unions striking ports to avoid getting automated machines, etc). That's a very valid point of discussion and well, I guess I've got to assume that tech for the most part helps people, allows them to work on other things, better jobs, more free time, etc. However, as it turns out, companies tend to outsource not to help people or make peoples lives better (yes, you could say the people getting the outsourced jobs are getting better) but at what cost of the people to whom the companies work for. American companies move overseas to avoid taxes and US laws, to me, that's not innovation, that's BS. That's not use tech or making things better, that's just hiding and playing games to save money. No country outsources to us, so why should our companies outsource to somewhere else?

Plus, tech does bring about other jobs and other innovations. Nothing good comes from outsourcing.

I know.. it doesn't completely make sense and it's probably not a valid explanation, but with tech, the idea is to help society to free it up to enjoy life, or work on other things, etc. At least, in my mind, that seems to be the idea. But maybe it's idealistic and I'm sure it's flawed.

Thanks for asking, I'll have to think about this some more.

Posted by voltaic on Wednesday May 12, 2010 @ 12:49pm
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Nothing good comes from outsourcing.

One giant-sized benefit of outsourcing is that it brings the wealth/education/tech/living level of other countries up to first world standards. And then ten years later when we whine about all the lost jobs making rubber duckies and cotton socks we get... wait, what? Someone ask these so-many-thousand Americans what they think of commie hippie socialist trade, now.

:(note formatting preserved from original article, I didn't capitalize things)

American made... ...Chinese owned

By Sheridan Prasso
24 May 2010
Fortune

Companies from CHINA are spending billions to build factories in the U.S.-and creating new JOBS FOR AMERICAN WORKERS.

ABOUT A MILE PAST the Bountiful Blessings Church on the outskirts of Spartanburg, S.C., make a right turn. There, tucked into an industrial court behind a row of sapling cherry trees not much taller than I am, past a company that makes rubber stamps and another that stitches logos onto caps and bags, is a brand-new factory: the state-of-the-art American Yuncheng Gravure Cylinder plant. Due to open any day now, it will make cylinders used to print labels like the ones around plastic soda bottles. But unlike its neighbors in Spartanburg, Yuncheng is a Chinese company. It has come to South Carolina because by Chinese standards, America is darn cheap.

Yes, you read that right. The land Yuncheng purchased in Spartanburg, at $350,000 for 6.5 acres, cost one-fourth the price of land back in Shanghai or Dongguan, a gritty city near Hong Kong where the company already runs three plants. Electricity is cheaper too: Yungcheng pays up to 14¢ per kilowatt-hour in China at peak usage, and just 4¢ in South Carolina. And no brownouts either, a sporadic problem in China. It's true that American workers are much more expensive, of course,
and the overall cost of making a widget in China remains lower, and perhaps always will.

But for hundreds of Chinese companies like Yuncheng, the U.S. has become a better, less expensive place to set up shop. It could be the biggest role reversal since, well ... when Nixon went to China. "The gap between manufacturing costs in the U.S. and China is shrinking," explains John Ling, a naturalized American from China who runs the South Carolina Department of Commerce's business recruitment office in Shanghai. Ling recruited Yuncheng to Spartanburg, and others too: Chinese companies have invested $280 million and created more than 1,200 jobs in South Carolina alone.

Today some 33 American states, ports, and municipalities have sent representatives like Ling to China to lure jobs once lost to China back to the U.S.: Besides affordable land and reliable power, states and cities are offering tax credits and other incentives to woo Chinese manufacturers. Beijing, meanwhile, which has mandated that Chinese companies globalize by expanding to key markets around the world, is chipping in by offering to finance up to 30% of the initial investment
costs, according to Chinese business sources.

The enticements are working. Chinese companies announced new direct investments in the U.S. of close to $5 billion in 2009 alone, according to New York City--based economic consultancy the Rhodium Group, which tallied the numbers for . That's well below Japanese investment in the U.S., which peaked at $148 billion in 1991, but a big jump from China's previous investments, which had been averaging around $500 million a year. Chinese firms last year acquired or announced they were starting more than 50 U.S. companies. And when China finally allows the value of its currency, the yuan, to appreciate-and it's just a question of when-Americans can expect to see Chinese projects, small today, really take off and have an impact on the U.S. economy. This could be a good thing for relations between the two countries. "It will take many years to balance out the flow of U.S. investment into China," says Dan Rosen, a principal at the Rhodium Group. But, he says, China's aggressive interest in U.S. investment suddenly gives Washington some leverage as it seeks to negotiate with Beijing on tariffs, trade issues, and economic policy.

None of that matters much in Spartanburg. Skilled workers at American Yuncheng will earn $25 to $30 an hour, line operators $10 to $12. That's a lot more than the $2 an hour that unskilled labor costs in China, but the company can qualify for a state payroll tax credit of $1,500 per worker (for any company creating more than 10 jobs). And by being closer to companies like Coca-Cola, Yuncheng can respond more quickly when they need new labels designed to show that a product has reduced its fat content or added more flavor. If business goes well, company president Li Wenchun expects to double the size of his operation, maybe in five to 10 years, and employ up to 120 Americans. "I'd like it to be next month, but it depends on how fast we develop the market here," he tells me through a Mandarin interpreter.

So far there's little sign of anti-Chinese sentiment among South Carolinians, who watched their state lose its cotton-based textile-manufacturing industry to low-cost countries like China. asked Sen. Jim DeMint, a Republican torchbearer for conservative causes, what he thinks of communists creating work in his home state. "South Carolina is one of the best places in the world to do business, and that's why so many international companies are moving jobs into our state" is his only reply.

[Another dumbass nativist Republican cunt sees his stupid fucking "conservative values" ignorance shot to shit by reality. Can't wait to see the first time this happens in Michigan and every red-blooded American union asshole's head explodes when deciding between unemployment because of home-grown American mismanagement or working for godless commie immigrants. -voltman]

Brenda Missouri, a 43-year-old leaks tester who works for appliance maker Haier, speaks about her employer in glowing terms. Haier was the first Chinese company to build a factory in the U.S.-a refrigerator plant in Camden, S.C., in 2000. "They're good business folks; they get the job done," she says. As for communism? "Doesn't matter," she shrugs. "It's money that makes the difference."

LAST DECEMBER the National Committee on U.S.-China Relations dispatched me to Corpus Christi to give a speech about the Chinese and their economy. Why? Because, they told me, the region is about to become home to the largest-ever Chinese-built factory in the U.S., a $1 billion plant by Tianjin Pipe Group to manufacture seamless pipe for oil drilling. If everything proceeds as plannedthe company received its air-quality permit on April 14 and hopes to break ground by fall-Tianjin Pipe expects to employ 600 Texans by 2012 and to provide an estimated $2.7 billion to the local economy over the next decade. Corpus Christians, it turned out, wanted to know more about their new neighbors, who are expected to relocate 40 to 50 families to Texas.

Upon arrival, I find it impossible not to notice the resemblance of Corpus Christi's long, curving coastline on the Gulf of Mexico to the one near Tianjin on the Bohai Sea between northern China and Korea. Some 75 U.S. locales competed for the factory, but when Chinese delegations from Tianjin Pipe visited Corpus Christi, the townspeople made them feel at home by welcoming the visitors to backyard barbecues. They even enlisted the Taiwan-born former owner of the local Chinese restaurant, Yalee Shih-perhaps the only woman in town who could speak Mandarin-to help them navigate cultural nuances. Shih, who also sits on the board of the Texas State Museum of Asian Cultures, delicately helped prevent a multimillion-dollar translation error over building costs that might have cost Corpus Christi the project, and also quashed what would have been an impolitic gift of clocks-which to the Chinese symbolize death or the end of a relationship-from a local retailer. She and others in the region's business community plan to help guide their new residents through life in America, like how to buy a car, how to rent a house, as well as where to go to buy fragrant rice instead of Uncle Ben's.

In the end, while feeling at home helps, it does come down to business, says J.J. Johnston, executive vice president and chief business development officer of the Corpus Christi Regional Economic Development Corp. "They like the strategic location of our region, the convenient access to materials coming in-mostly scrap metal and pig iron-and the ability to export to North and South America through the port of Corpus Christi," he says.

There are other incentives. On April 9 the U.S. Commerce Department imposed import duties of up to 99% on the type of seamless pipe that is to be manufactured by Tianjin Pipe-a reprisal prompted by the United Steelworkers union. The Chinese company, the world's largest maker of steel pipe, had said it could not afford to export to the U.S. if tariffs were over 20%. Now its pipe will be made in America. "It's just another reason they have to have a U.S.-based production facility," says Johnston.

Even without tariffs, Tianjin had been looking to expand-as are many Chinese companies once they reach about $100 million in annual sales. "Chinese companies, as they get bigger, have to start thinking about their global positioning," says Clarence Kwan, who runs the Chinese Services Group at Deloitte, which advises Chinese companies on doing business in the U.S. Officially the Chinese government has given approval to over 1,200 Chinese investments in the U.S., but that number is considered low because it doesn't count those made via Hong Kong-where many Chinese companies earn equity capital from being publicly traded-or tax havens like the Virgin Islands, where Chinese investment may stop first before flowing to the U.S. Plus, investments below $100 million don't need Beijing's nod and may be approved at the local level.

Chinese companies see America as more than a manufacturing center. So far this year they have announced plans to build a wind-energy turbine plant and wind farm in Nevada that will create 1,000 American jobs; purchased the 400-employee Los Angeles Marriott Downtown out of foreclosure; and acquired a shuttered shopping center in Milwaukee, with plans to turn it into a mega-mall for 200 Chinese retailers. In some cases Chinese companies are resuscitating American outfits that had been left for dead. About 70 miles west of Spartanburg, near the Georgia border, past signs reading "24-hour fried chicken," another Chinese company is hiring engineers,metallurgical and mechanical, some from nearby Clemson University. In June 2009, Top-Eastern Group, a tool manufacturer based in China's coastal city of Dalian, acquired a factory here along with three other facilities from Kennametal, one of America's largest machine-tool makers, after the U.S. company, based in Latrobe, Pa., reported a $137 million loss (citing a slowdown in industrial activity) in the quarter before the sale.

This plant, in Seneca, S.C., makes drill bits. And in the months since his purchase of it for $29 million, Top-Eastern founder Jeff Chee has invested another $10 million to upgrade machinery, built a $3 million logistics center, brought back Kennametal's furloughed workers, hired 120 more, and now has his 260-employee plant working overtime filling orders for the Cleveland Twist Drills, Chicago Latrobe, Putnam, and Bassett brands he acquired. He brought back the company's old name, which was Greenfield Industries before Kennametal acquired it in 1997, and emblazoned it on a sign out front.

General Electric's former CEO, Jack Welch, he volunteers, is his inspiration. "I've read a lot of books, and I learned a lot from him," Chee says in broken English amid the sharp smell of grinding steel. "One person can change a lot." As one of China's self-made entrepreneurs, who started Top- Eastern in 1994 with just $500, Chee now has worldwide sales of more than $120 million, 4,000 employees, and factories in Germany and Brazil. He visits the South Carolina plant monthly to make sure all is proceeding as planned, and employs American managers to run it in his absence rather than bring over Chinese. "There's good, experienced people and good know-how already here," he says.

How can he make a drill bit factory profitable where Kennametal had struggled? By increasing productivity with new equipment and cutting costs, he says. Plus, Chee forges his own steel, and he owns the mines back in China for two of its more expensive components, tungsten and molybdenum. The fact that he can source from himself means he keeps the margins-and now his tools are officially made in the U.S. The cost of making those products is much higher than in China, he says, "but the problem is customers just accept 'made in U.S.A.' products, so I have no choice. Lots of customers here have government contracts that have 'made in U.S.A.' requirements."

And how do the employees feel about having a Chinese entrepreneur come to their rescue? "Just because it's a Chinese owner, they don't really care," says Scott Henderson, a 47-year-old manufacturing manager who had been furloughed one week a month along with his workers before Chee bought the factory. "They're all happy to be working 40 hours a week." They also have the opportunity for overtime, and a third, graveyard shift has been added to serve a nearly 40% rise in orders. "I feel great about it," says Sam Marcengill, a 24-year-old technician at the plant. Last year he was laid off for six months before Chee's purchase gave him his job back. Now he's on overtime, 48 hours a week. "The work's a lot more steady. It's better. Personally I'm a lot better off. It's a great thing."

NEVER MIND THE HICCUPS Chinese companies experienced when they tried to enter the U.S. before. In 2005, Washington famously blocked China's National Offshore Oil Corp. (CNOOC) from buying Unocal, and Chinese appliance maker Haier failed to acquire Maytag. Now, like the Japanese in the 1980s-when U.S. trade frictions combined with Japan's boom blossomed into Honda and Toyota manufacturing plants-the Chinese are here to stay. Their presence initially made some folks uneasy. A few years ago a caller to The Rush Limbaugh Show complained that as he was driving past the Haier plant in Camden, the Chinese flag was flying higher than the American flag and the South Carolina state flag out front. It was an easy mistake to make by anyone looking at the three equal-height flagpoles from an angle.

Conservative media joined in and called for protests, and the public rang the factory to complain. The Chinese executives at Haier had no idea flags were such a big deal, and it became their bugaboo. The complaints continued until about a year and a half ago when Haier America factory president Joseph Sexton, who was new to the job, decided to fix it. He had two of the poles lowered so that the U.S. flag looks highest from all angles.

It took Haier some time to work through the issues of being a Chinese employer in a small, historic Southern town (pop. 6,682) lined with stately antebellum houses and home to two Revolutionary War battlefields. "Having a Chinese manager didn't work. That's why they took all the Chinese managers out of here," says Haier's human resources director, Gerald Reeves, who was one of the first hired by Haier and guided the Chinese through the realities of American-style personnel management-including convincing them that they needed to offer health insurance. He once even asked John Ling, South Carolina's man in Shanghai, to fly home from China to talk to a manager who was arousing employee resentment by publicly embarrassing the workers, Chinese-style, for their mistakes.

Now the only way to know you're in a Chinese factory is by looking up at the large Chinese flag hanging from the rafters-alongside an American one, of course-and by the very Chinese motivational slogans on the walls: SPIRIT OF ENTREPRENEURSHIP-STRIVE FOR A CLEARLY DEFINED OBJECTIVE AND MAKE THE IMPOSSIBLE POSSIBLE WITHOUT AN EXCUSE reads the banner over the refrigerator testing line. And if you come in February, Sexton organizes a Chinese New Year party with food and outdoor firecrackers.

What is perhaps most startling about the Haier factory is that it is actually shipping goods back to China. Best known for its mini-fridges for dorm rooms and studio apartments, Haier's U.S. plant also makes large units, good for supersized American McMansions but too large for a typical Chinese household. Now a growing number of wealthy people in China want to supersize too, so Haier has realized it can ship a small number, maybe 4,000 a year, of its highest-end refrigerators home and sell them for $2,600 apiece-more than China's average annual income of around $2,000. (Haier also ships U.S.-made refrigerators to India, Australia, Mexico, and Canada.) There aren't enough wealthy customers yet to make it worthwhile retooling any of the 29 Haier factories in China, but the nearby deepwater port in Charleston, S.C., makes export easy enough. "There are folks in China who want high-end products," says Haier America factory president Joseph Sexton. "China is a much different place than people think."

CHINESE NEWCOMERS would do well to learn from Haier's missteps as well as its great strides. "They're coming with little experience into a highly sophisticated market, and they are bound to make mistakes," says Karl Sauvant, executive director of the Vale Columbia Center on Sustainable International Investment at Columbia University and a law lecturer there, who in February published an edited volume titled Investing in the United States: Is the U.S. Ready for FDI From China?

"This is the thing the Japanese did fairly successfully: You have to be a good corporate citizen, source locally, contribute to causes and charities in the local community, and be familiar with how to navigate the corridors of Washington," says Sauvant. "And in key managerial positions you should have Americans." Legal questions, such as whether Chinese companies operating in America would be subject in U.S. courts to the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act for business practices in, say, India or elsewhere have yet to be tested, he says. And then there's the issue of the local sensitivities exhibited in the Haier flag-flying incident.

Unlike Japan, China is no U.S. military ally-despite President Obama's naming China a "strategic partner," instead of the "strategic competitor" label it had under the Bush administration. Politically it remains a communist country, despite its capitalist economy. There's obviously more to overcome.

Chinese investors say they don't care too much about politics, but hope their entry into the U.S. can be a positive force. "This will definitely help U.S.-China relations," remarks Li, the manager of the print-cylinder factory Yuncheng, as he guides me on a tour. "Increasing communication makes the two sides closer." Even if it doesn't, business is business. "Good products are borderless," he notes. And there's always a Chinese proverb to cite: "It takes 10 years to make a sword," says Li. In other words, keep at it till you get it right, and the outcome will be strong and lasting. And perhaps transform into the plowshare that sows a mutually beneficial harvest for America and China both.

Posted by rub on Thursday May 13, 2010 @ 12:16am
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Nothing good comes from outsourcing.

One giant-sized benefit of outsourcing is that it brings the wealth/education/tech/living level of other countries up to first world standards. And then ten years later when we whine about all the lost jobs making rubber duckies and cotton socks we get... wait, what? Someone ask these so-many-thousand Americans what they think of commie hippie socialist trade, now.

:(note formatting preserved from original article, I didn't capitalize things)

American made... ...Chinese owned

By Sheridan Prasso
24 May 2010
Fortune

Here is the reality of the situation. The Chinese are coming to the States to build factories NOT because it is cheaper. That reporter is one dumb fuck to believe that. Sure, if you compare Shanghai versus bum-fuck USA then yes, but that is apples to oranges. If you want to manufacture in China nowadays you move inland where land is cheap (often times free) and labor is cheap. The Chinese business, however, are opening locations in the US as a backup plan. The Chinese don't trust their own government, that includes the politicians not trusting their own government. Any big company in China is going to be partly owned/controlled by some piece of the Chinese government. Pretty much any wealthy Chinese dude now knows first hand how Mao took away private possessions including land. That concept is still fresh in the culture there and your wealthy people are afraid it could happen again.

At any time the government can turn on you and fuck you over. It just happened with one of the wealthiest Chinese companies called Gome. So, all these wealthy Chinese want to open something in the US so they can move their families here and assets. The US is a backup plan in case shit hits the fan in China.

I have heard this exact thing from numerous wealthy Chinese and politicians over the past few years being in China. Everyone knows it and it is the reality of what is currently driving them to put shit in the US.

Great for the US ... maybe. Do we really want a resurgence of manufacturing to be dominated by FDI? Wouldn't it be better to tariff the fuck out of imports to encourage domestic manufacturing? The states are so hungry for these wealthy Chinese they almost write new laws for them and put together crazy tax schemes where the Chinese pay very little state taxes and often times even get money back. I guess beggars can't be choosers and right now the usa is not in a position to be chooser. The other way of looking at it and a concern Chinese nationalists have, is that the relatively new openness China has allowing domestic capital to travel abroad will lead to a brain drain as many of the wealthy seek to buy their way out of China.

Posted by voltaic on Friday May 14, 2010 @ 08:36am
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Here is the reality of the situation. The Chinese are coming to the States to build factories NOT because it is cheaper. That reporter is one dumb fuck to believe that.

He didn't say that bro, in fact quite the opposite. Going by memory there were parts about diversifying global distribution, mitigating political/currency risk, and just having the "Made in USA" label. So, I guess you're agreeing with him. :)

Great for the US ... maybe. Do we really want a resurgence of manufacturing to be dominated by FDI? Wouldn't it be better to tariff the fuck out of imports to encourage domestic manufacturing? The states are so hungry for these wealthy Chinese they almost write new laws for them and put together crazy tax schemes where the Chinese pay very little state taxes and often times even get money back. I guess beggars can't be choosers and right now the usa is not in a position to be chooser. The other way of looking at it and a concern Chinese nationalists have, is that the relatively new openness China has allowing domestic capital to travel abroad will lead to a brain drain as many of the wealthy seek to buy their way out of China.

Ugh, don't get me started on tariffs. They're just another barrier placed to support nativism rather than based on sound economic judgement.

Posted by Stealth on Thursday May 13, 2010 @ 06:08am
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Great for the US ... maybe. Do we really want a resurgence of manufacturing to be dominated by FDI? Wouldn't it be better to tariff the fuck out of imports to encourage domestic manufacturing? The states are so hungry for these wealthy Chinese they almost write new laws for them and put together crazy tax schemes where the Chinese pay very little state taxes and often times even get money back. I guess beggars can't be choosers and right now the usa is not in a position to be chooser. The other way of looking at it and a concern Chinese nationalists have, is that the relatively new openness China has allowing domestic capital to travel abroad will lead to a brain drain as many of the wealthy seek to buy their way out of China.

<sarcasm> We do this for large American companies already (again, for some reason that I don't get).. so not do it for the Chinese too </sarcasm>. Like i said earlier, it's bullshit that companies need tax handouts to stay somewhere to build a factory. Small companies don't get the same breaks and it shifts the tax/support burden

Posted by voltaic on Friday May 14, 2010 @ 08:40am
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Great for the US ... maybe. Do we really want a resurgence of manufacturing to be dominated by FDI? Wouldn't it be better to tariff the fuck out of imports to encourage domestic manufacturing? The states are so hungry for these wealthy Chinese they almost write new laws for them and put together crazy tax schemes where the Chinese pay very little state taxes and often times even get money back. I guess beggars can't be choosers and right now the usa is not in a position to be chooser. The other way of looking at it and a concern Chinese nationalists have, is that the relatively new openness China has allowing domestic capital to travel abroad will lead to a brain drain as many of the wealthy seek to buy their way out of China.

<sarcasm> We do this for large American companies already (again, for some reason that I don't get).. so not do it for the Chinese too </sarcasm>. Like i said earlier, it's bullshit that companies need tax handouts to stay somewhere to build a factory. Small companies don't get the same breaks and it shifts the tax/support burden

Many don't need tax handouts. But states/municipalities compete for those employers, and this is all they have to offer. They can't just cut a check to the company. If you are setting up a new building and let ten cities know they're on your short list, aren't you going to go with the one with the most attractive option? And anyway, here's an economic principle that if you ignore everything else I talk about I want you to understand: the consumer bears 99% of the tax burden 99% of the time. Period. Stamp that into your brain. OK, if the government puts a $10 per widget tax on widgets from China, what, do you think the Chinese company won't simply increase their price to the consumer by $10? And then the American company will see that and increase $9 (that way it's still cheaper)?

Taxes on goods are almost always borne by the consumer. The great thing about VAT compared to our system is at least it's fucking honest.

Posted by rub on Friday May 14, 2010 @ 09:42am
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Many don't need tax handouts. But states/municipalities compete for those employers, and this is all they have to offer. They can't just cut a check to the company.

Sad thing is yes, some cities do. Las Vegas is one such example. The check isn't written from "The City of Las Vegas" but rather will come from a private enterprise which has a contract with the city. This private enterprise is given some hefty cash for "marketing" from the city. The private enterprise then opens up an office in China for a ridiculously over-inflated rate and spends money on marketing which never occurs. Once those monies hit China they go into the pocket of the guy who is setting up operations in the states. It's some fucked up shit and I've seen this shit happen with my own eyes. The guy with the office in China, who sublets a piece of it to the US marketing company for a ridiculous amount, is almost a broker for the US city. This finds Chinese companies and makes sure everyone gets their kickback, of course he also keeps a few points for himself.

Alternatively, if it doesn't come from the city it will come from the State.

One day, when I don't care about some current relationships I'll be sending my story with email and fax evidence to some newspapers. I am sure a lot of people don't know about this shit now that I think about it.

Posted by voltaic on Monday September 29, 2008 @ 10:08pm
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Humm.. that's a really interesting point. I've talked with other about how to innovation and modern tech is a good thing and i think it should happen (unions striking ports to avoid getting automated machines, etc). That's a very valid point of discussion and well, I guess I've got to assume that tech for the most part helps people, allows them to work on other things, better jobs, more free time, etc. However, as it turns out, companies tend to outsource not to help people or make peoples lives better (yes, you could say the people getting the outsourced jobs are getting better) but at what cost of the people to whom the companies work for. American companies move overseas to avoid taxes and US laws, to me, that's not innovation, that's BS. That's not use tech or making things better, that's just hiding and playing games to save money. No country outsources to us, so why should our companies outsource to somewhere else?

American companies don't move operations overseas to avoid taxes and laws. For Fuck's Fucking Sake, dude. We aren't talking about corporate raiders hiding slush funds in Caymen Islands banks here. Companies move overseas to save money on things like payrolls and to add various types of redundancy (24-hour coverage, multi-site disaster recovery, etc). I mean yeah, you can always points to a few examples of this stuff happening of course; that's human nature. But that isn't the rule. And note how quickly those nations bring their judicial and financial laws up to snuff so that they can compete in the modern world.

BTW nobody outsources to us because we fucking rule. If you want to have someone outsource to you, go become a citizen of a country with shitty GDP, little infrastructure, and shit-filled gutters running along the roads. Although there's an argument to be made that every other nation has outsourced their education to our higher schools, and a few still have outsourced military (mostly Europeans who have thus been able to spend their 50% tax rates building great infrastructures) so there is that.

Plus, tech does bring about other jobs and other innovations. Nothing good comes from outsourcing.

Sure it does. American companies save money and pass that savings on to American consumers. And with saved money comes capital, and with capital economic growth. Look at the jobs that are (mostly) outsourced: shitty call center work, sewing sweat shops, plastic rubber ducky production, etc. Who wants to do that here in the US? No one. The fewer unskilled jobs there are here, the more people will be motivted to get skilled, be it a college education, trade school, or whatever.

How about when an American company outsources to another location in America? McDonalds experimented with having the people who take the orders in a drive-thru work out of a cheap-ass call center in (I think) Colorado and found faster serving time, less errors, and cost savings. Is it OK for people in city X, USA, to lose jobs to people in city Y, USA?

Incidentally, I don't know if they still do it in certain markets, but it's interesting.

I know.. it doesn't completely make sense and it's probably not a valid explanation, but with tech, the idea is to help society to free it up to enjoy life, or work on other things, etc. At least, in my mind, that seems to be the idea. But maybe it's idealistic and I'm sure it's flawed.

Posted by Stealth on Tuesday September 30, 2008 @ 03:16pm
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Humm.. that's a really interesting point. I've talked with other about how to innovation and modern tech is a good thing and i think it should happen (unions striking ports to avoid getting automated machines, etc). That's a very valid point of discussion and well, I guess I've got to assume that tech for the most part helps people, allows them to work on other things, better jobs, more free time, etc. However, as it turns out, companies tend to outsource not to help people or make peoples lives better (yes, you could say the people getting the outsourced jobs are getting better) but at what cost of the people to whom the companies work for. American companies move overseas to avoid taxes and US laws, to me, that's not innovation, that's BS. That's not use tech or making things better, that's just hiding and playing games to save money. No country outsources to us, so why should our companies outsource to somewhere else?

American companies don't move operations overseas to avoid taxes and laws. For Fuck's Fucking Sake, dude. We aren't talking about corporate raiders hiding slush funds in Caymen Islands banks here. Companies move overseas to save money on things like payrolls and to add various types of redundancy (24-hour coverage, multi-site disaster recovery, etc). I mean yeah, you can always points to a few examples of this stuff happening of course; that's human nature. But that isn't the rule. And note how quickly those nations bring their judicial and financial laws up to snuff so that they can compete in the modern world.

I'm not talking about opening other office (jesus man.. I'm not that fucking stupid).. i'm talking about up and moving the HQ overseas to save money, avoid taxes and get around laws. Need a few examples of a few companies? Here's a recent article from 2008.. Halliburton, Accenture, Ingersoll-Rand Co. Ltd, Seagate Technology LLC.. I'm sure I can find other articles.. this was just near the top of the google search. And PS - Top spots they moved too? Caymon, Barbados and Bermuda. But maybe I'm just making it up.. maybe those small companies will stay and help out.

And I get it, it's a sign of the times, things change, the world gets flat, bleh bleh bleh but your about to take 700 BILLION from the tax payer to pay for the mistakes of a few AND the government, you remove the cheap jobs they could get and you remove the extra tax money that a business provides. where's the upside? As a country, how are we supposed to improve and prosper if we can't keep our own people employed with enough of a paycheck to have a basic standard of living? If the US companies don't care, and the US government doesn't care.. then who will?

BTW nobody outsources to us because we fucking rule. If you want to have someone outsource to you, go become a citizen of a country with shitty GDP, little infrastructure, and shit-filled gutters running along the roads. Although there's an argument to be made that every other nation has outsourced their education to our higher schools, and a few still have outsourced military (mostly Europeans who have thus been able to spend their 50% tax rates building great infrastructures) so there is that.

If by Rule you mean we won't work for cheap then ok. If by rule you mean the cost of living and our expectations are too high, then ok.

Plus, tech does bring about other jobs and other innovations. Nothing good comes from outsourcing.

Sure it does. American companies save money and pass that savings on to American consumers. And with saved money comes capital, and with capital economic growth. Look at the jobs that are (mostly) outsourced: shitty call center work, sewing sweat shops, plastic rubber ducky production, etc. Who wants to do that here in the US? No one. The fewer unskilled jobs there are here, the more people will be motivted to get skilled, be it a college education, trade school, or whatever.

Those unskilled laborers, they might not be able to go to collage, can't afford school, can't get a loan and even if they went to the school, now they need experience because there is an influx of too many skilled workers, so they still can't get a job, or if they do, the pay goes down, or the people don't work. Either way, they can't buy as much. You would think things got cheaper, but really.. how frustrating is it to work with a call center.. i would rather pay $25 more for a computer in order to have an American with some skill on the phone to answer my problem instead of "Bob" in Bangladesh. You need to have those crappy jobs to help people even try to get by and move up. Or what are those people supposed to do?

How about when an American company outsources to another location in America? McDonalds experimented with having the people who take the orders in a drive-thru work out of a cheap-ass call center in (I think) Colorado and found faster serving time, less errors, and cost savings. Is it OK for people in city X, USA, to lose jobs to people in city Y, USA?

Incidentally, I don't know if they still do it in certain markets, but it's interesting.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE2D9153AF93BA25754C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2

Yes, Mc D's did try that out (and I think some of them are still doing it) and really, I don't have a problem with that. It's still a USA job, it's still a job some high school kid can get to earn some scratch and it's still something that contributes to local economy. If you move the cheap crappy jobs all over seas, what's a new high school kid going to do for work? What's someone who's out of prison (watching Prison Break) and doesn't have any skills, someone who didn't go to school, gets laid off and has to start over.. what are they going to do. Those crappy outsourced jobs, while people might not want to do them, they do provide work for someone who NEEDS the job.

Here's an example, and while it might not be the best one, it is someone you know and can relate too. This person goes to school for 5 or 6 years but didn't' finish.. didn't learn a trade, mostly retail and the like now, this person is probably going to be back on their own and needs to find work again. Any skilled job requires experience (even if they had the training). How do you get experience doing any skill if the low crappy jobs are all gone or reduced and done somewhere else?

Moving jobs from state to state.. it's still the US.. it's still US citizens.They can move, they can get a new skill, but someone else in the country is getting helped if you don't move. Still a check in the win column. Did you know.. that as a US citizen you can't work over here for a local (EU company) very easily. As in, the local company has to advertise the job and has to go to the housing/job board and say that there is NO ONE in the EU that can do that job and that they've searched and that you are a skilled worker. How easy is it for a foreign worker to get a legal job in the states? Lets not even TALK about non legal. Here? You ass is headed back home.. and they do check.

Posted by voltaic on Tuesday September 30, 2008 @ 09:03pm
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I'm not talking about opening other office (jesus man.. I'm not that fucking stupid).. i'm talking about up and moving the HQ overseas to save money, avoid taxes and get around laws. Need a few examples of a few companies? Here's a recent article from 2008.. Halliburton, Accenture, Ingersoll-Rand Co. Ltd, Seagate Technology LLC.. I'm sure I can find other articles.. this was just near the top of the google search. And PS - Top spots they moved too? Caymon, Barbados and Bermuda. But maybe I'm just making it up.. maybe those small companies will stay and help out.

I acknowledged in my last post that there are a few examples. With ~25 million US firms producing ~$12.5 trillion in US annual GDP, there's going to be a few bad apples. According to this page, there were about $150 billion in corporate profits in tax-haven countries in 2002. If we gloss over the minor difference in the dates of these figures, that's just over 1% of total GDP. So it doesn't seem like nearly as big a problem as you make it out to be (especially as those profits largely go to American shareholders or reinvested back into these American companies).

And I get it, it's a sign of the times, things change, the world gets flat, bleh bleh bleh but your about to take 700 BILLION from the tax payer to pay for the mistakes of a few AND the government, you remove the cheap jobs they could get and you remove the extra tax money that a business provides. where's the upside? As a country, how are we supposed to improve and prosper if we can't keep our own people employed with enough of a paycheck to have a basic standard of living? If the US companies don't care, and the US government doesn't care.. then who will?

Whoa whoa whoa, hold on now. Let's try and keep it to no more than two or three different topics at once here. The $700B thing going on right now is completely unrelated to outsourcing jobs or corporate profits, it has nothing to do with paying for the mistakes of a few, and it has nothing to do with job loss (except for the couple thousand bank and finance types who are currently out of work) or with corporate tax receipts, and definitely nothing to do with a basic standard of living for Joe Sixpack. This is like five completely different subjects. We can talk about this stuff if you like (I've studied it more than most people I know) but totally unrelated to outsourcing. Totally.

If by Rule you mean we won't work for cheap then ok. If by rule you mean the cost of living and our expectations are too high, then ok.

By "rule" I mean that we (in the corporate aggregate) are bad motherfuckers. Other countries are sewing our socks and putting Elmer's glue into bottles and taking our Windows help line calls while we are building supersonic fucking airplanes and pouring billions into pharmaceutical research and leading the world in higher education. They want almost everything we produce: movies, music, software (I'm talking cutting edge business stuff here, not value-pack video games), science, law, and business. That's what I mean.

Don't start up into cost of living either (unrelated subject!), unless you really want to talk about it and get into quality of life as well. Yeah our bread may be $2.50 compared to 50c 30 years ago, but we have 900 types of bread covering entire aisles of dozens of stores every few square miles.

Those unskilled laborers, they might not be able to go to collage, can't afford school, can't get a loan and even if they went to the school, now they need experience because there is an influx of too many skilled workers, so they still can't get a job, or if they do, the pay goes down, or the people don't work. Either way, they can't buy as much. You would think things got cheaper, but really.. how frustrating is it to work with a call center.. i would rather pay $25 more for a computer in order to have an American with some skill on the phone to answer my problem instead of "Bob" in Bangladesh. You need to have those crappy jobs to help people even try to get by and move up. Or what are those people supposed to do?

Most people would not rather pay $25 more. What if you are an all-American business with 1000 all-American employees: you want to spend another $25,000 so you can talk to Bob in Denver instead? Do you think your shareholders (also Americans) would agree? How about your 1000 employees who would rather make an extra $25 instead of you spending it?

It seems to me that we do have unskilled jobs here that can never ever be outsourced: fast food work, day labor, housekeeping industry, taxi drivers, tomato pickers, and so on. In any case, I agree that it sucks for unskilled workers. The question to be answered isn't "does it suck"; the question is "does it suck enough to make trade-offs in other areas"? How many American companies should toss away cost savings and profit and dividends to American shareholders and jobs to American software companies and put a bunch of car body riveters back to work instead of robots? How about telephone plug operators instead of digital switches? How about guys with scythes and baskets instead of wheat harvesting vehicles? I'm being serious.

Yes, Mc D's did try that out (and I think some of them are still doing it) and really, I don't have a problem with that. It's still a USA job, it's still a job some high school kid can get to earn some scratch and it's still something that contributes to local economy. If you move the cheap crappy jobs all over seas, what's a new high school kid going to do for work? What's someone who's out of prison (watching Prison Break) and doesn't have any skills, someone who didn't go to school, gets laid off and has to start over.. what are they going to do. Those crappy outsourced jobs, while people might not want to do them, they do provide work for someone who NEEDS the job.

There are plenty of unskilled jobs left. Believe me. In any case, why so loyal to America but not to, say, Nevada? Why is it OK if 1000 Nevadans lose their jobs to Coloradans, but not to Bangladeshi? Do you think the Nevadan high school kids feel better about unemployment if the job at least stayed within 3000 miles of home?

Here's an example, and while it might not be the best one, it is someone you know and can relate too. This person goes to school for 5 or 6 years but didn't' finish.. didn't learn a trade, mostly retail and the like now, this person is probably going to be back on their own and needs to find work again. Any skilled job requires experience (even if they had the training). How do you get experience doing any skill if the low crappy jobs are all gone or reduced and done somewhere else?

They aren't all done somewhere else. The lowest level high-school job has always been, and still is, shoveling fries. That job cannot be outsourced. Not to mention that there are bazillions more fast food joints now than 20 years ago, so that's job growth. Plus there's retail, like you said, and so you get a company like Walmart (which can buy cheap-ass toothbrushes from Chang) which is the largest employer in the US (I think they still are) and those are all jobs that can't go overseas.

You are in the rut of thinking that once an unskilled job like sewing socks leaves, there is no new unskilled job to replace it. That is not the case.

Moving jobs from state to state.. it's still the US.. it's still US citizens.They can move, they can get a new skill, but someone else in the country is getting helped if you don't move. Still a check in the win column. Did you know.. that as a US citizen you can't work over here for a local (EU company) very easily. As in, the local company has to advertise the job and has to go to the housing/job board and say that there is NO ONE in the EU that can do that job and that they've searched and that you are a skilled worker. How easy is it for a foreign worker to get a legal job in the states? Lets not even TALK about non legal. Here? You ass is headed back home.. and they do check.

I have no problem with illegals or undocumented workers, and I think it's one of the most hateful things being propagated in the American conscience right now. Especially led by so-called "Christians". I guess to them "love thy neighbor" means only if he has a Social Security number. I think we should completely (with a couple very minor caveats) open our borders and let anyone in and out whenever and as often as they want for business and pleasure.

Incidentally, most European countries also have higher unemployment than the US historically.

Posted by voltaic on Friday March 13, 2009 @ 07:32am
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I'm not talking about opening other office (jesus man.. I'm not that fucking stupid).. i'm talking about up and moving the HQ overseas to save money, avoid taxes and get around laws. Need a few examples of a few companies? Here's a recent article from 2008.. Halliburton, Accenture, Ingersoll-Rand Co. Ltd, Seagate Technology LLC.. I'm sure I can find other articles.. this was just near the top of the google search. And PS - Top spots they moved too? Caymon, Barbados and Bermuda. But maybe I'm just making it up.. maybe those small companies will stay and help out.

I acknowledged in my last post that there are a few examples. With ~25 million US firms producing ~$12.5 trillion in US annual GDP, there's going to be a few bad apples. According to this page, there were about $150 billion in corporate profits in tax-haven countries in 2002. If we gloss over the minor difference in the dates of these figures, that's just over 1% of total GDP. So it doesn't seem like nearly as big a problem as you make it out to be (especially as those profits largely go to American shareholders or reinvested back into these American companies).

Interesting article on changing views in tax haven countries:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Switzerland-breaks-with-apf-14627100.html

"The government insisted it would hold onto its cherished banking secrecy rules, but said other countries could now expect Swiss cooperation in cases where they provide compelling evidence of tax evasion.

[...]

Merz's announcement came a day after Switzerland's tiny neighbor Liechtenstein bowed to outside pressure by adopting the standards in a similar attempt to shed its label as a tax haven where foreigners can safely hide their money. Several others tax havens -- including Andorra, Bermuda and the islands of Jersey and Guernsey in the English Channel -- also have signaled over the past month that they would open their books to foreign tax inspectors."

Posted by Stealth on Friday March 13, 2009 @ 07:45am
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I guess it's time to move my money again.. DAMN. Just when I got used to remembering my current 16 digit numbered account, I have to start all over again.

Posted by Caliber on Friday March 13, 2009 @ 01:07pm
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I guess it's time to move my money again.. DAMN. Just when I got used to remembering my current 16 digit numbered account, I have to start all over again.

I don't think you gotta worry too much about the $14.87 you got in there. Even at 33%, you only owe about $5 (though with interest, you might make it out of there with your underpants, never can tell)

Posted by Stealth on Friday March 13, 2009 @ 06:24pm
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I guess it's time to move my money again.. DAMN. Just when I got used to remembering my current 16 digit numbered account, I have to start all over again.

I don't think you gotta worry too much about the $14.87 you got in there. Even at 33%, you only owe about $5 (though with interest, you might make it out of there with your underpants, never can tell)

don't forget.. TDY money man.. save that shit up..

Posted by Caliber on Saturday March 14, 2009 @ 05:02pm
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I guess it's time to move my money again.. DAMN. Just when I got used to remembering my current 16 digit numbered account, I have to start all over again.

I don't think you gotta worry too much about the $14.87 you got in there. Even at 33%, you only owe about $5 (though with interest, you might make it out of there with your underpants, never can tell)

don't forget.. TDY money man.. save that shit up..

you forget... I'm a father and a husband... there art no such thingy

Posted by Stealth on Sunday March 15, 2009 @ 10:24am
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I guess it's time to move my money again.. DAMN. Just when I got used to remembering my current 16 digit numbered account, I have to start all over again.

I don't think you gotta worry too much about the $14.87 you got in there. Even at 33%, you only owe about $5 (though with interest, you might make it out of there with your underpants, never can tell)

don't forget.. TDY money man.. save that shit up..

you forget... I'm a father and a husband... there art no such thingy

Oh yeah.. right.. forgot about those two items.. so how does it feel to have your own black hole? That's a neat trick.

Posted by voltaic on Monday February 23, 2009 @ 07:42am
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By "rule" I mean that we (in the corporate aggregate) are bad motherfuckers. Other countries are sewing our socks and putting Elmer's glue into bottles and taking our Windows help line calls while we are building supersonic fucking airplanes and pouring billions into pharmaceutical research and leading the world in higher education. They want almost everything we produce: movies, music, software (I'm talking cutting edge business stuff here, not value-pack video games), science, law, and business. That's what I mean.

I ran across an interesting article today that reminded me of this good discussion.

Is anything made in the U.S.A. anymore? You'd be surprised.
It seems as if the country that used to make everything is on the brink of making nothing. In January, 207,000 U.S. manufacturing jobs vanished in the largest one-month drop since October 1982. U.S. factory activity is hovering at a 28-year low. Even before the recession, plants were hemorrhaging work to foreign competitors with low-cost labor. And some companies were moving production overseas.

But manufacturing in the United States is not dead or even dying. It is moving upscale, following the biggest profits and becoming more efficient, just as Henry Ford did when he created the assembly line to make the Model T car.

The United States remains by far the world's leading manufacturer by value of goods produced. It hit a record $1.6 trillion in 2007 - nearly double the $811 billion of 1987. For every $1 of value produced in China factories, the United States generates $2.50.

So what is made in the U.S.A. these days?

from http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/20/business/wbmake.php

Posted by MadArab on Monday February 23, 2009 @ 08:32am
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from http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/20/business/wbmake.php

Good article, thanks for sharing. Funny you should post that today... I just got the following email Fwd from my father in law:

Posted by voltaic on Monday February 23, 2009 @ 03:50pm
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I just got the following email Fwd from my father in law:

I know that's supposed to be humorous, but man. Some people really believe that shit.

Posted by MadArab on Tuesday February 24, 2009 @ 05:54am
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I just got the following email Fwd from my father in law:

I know that's supposed to be humorous, but man. Some people really believe that shit.

I liked:



heheh

Posted by Stealth on Sunday October 5, 2008 @ 04:46am
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we gotta get together over a few beers and have the conversation.. just easier face to face..

you should swing on by some time. heheh

Posted by voltaic on Sunday October 5, 2008 @ 09:12am
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you should swing on by some time. heheh

Sweet, I'll be there in a minute.

Posted by Stealth on Monday October 6, 2008 @ 07:39am
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you should swing on by some time. heheh

Sweet, I'll be there in a minute.

Cool. I'll put the pie in the oven.

Posted by voltaic on Monday October 6, 2008 @ 08:27am
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Cool. I'll put the pie in the oven.

I hope that isn't some Euro-code for homo stuff. Friends man, that's it.

Posted by Stealth on Monday October 6, 2008 @ 11:55am
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Cool. I'll put the pie in the oven.

I hope that isn't some Euro-code for homo stuff. Friends man, that's it.

heheh naw man. i thought you liked pie. I got some German and Belgium beer if that might help.

Posted by voltaic on Monday October 6, 2008 @ 04:32pm
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heheh naw man. i thought you liked pie. I got some German and Belgium beer if that might help.

I do like pie, I just want to make sure that isn't a euphemism or some shit.

Posted by Caliber on Tuesday October 7, 2008 @ 08:49am
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heheh naw man. i thought you liked pie. I got some German and Belgium beer if that might help.

I do like pie, I just want to make sure that isn't a euphemism or some shit.

The pie was for real, but you better be careful after that beer comment hehe

Posted by voltaic on Friday October 3, 2008 @ 10:52am
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They aren't all done somewhere else. The lowest level high-school job has always been, and still is, shoveling fries. That job cannot be outsourced. Not to mention that there are bazillions more fast food joints now than 20 years ago, so that's job growth. Plus there's retail, like you said, and so you get a company like Walmart (which can buy cheap-ass toothbrushes from Chang) which is the largest employer in the US (I think they still are) and those are all jobs that can't go overseas.

I just wanted to check myself on this. It is the case that Walmart is still the largest employer as of Jan 31, with nearly 2.1 million employees, completely eclipsing the next largest non-government US employer, UPS (425K employees, mostly unskilled BTW) and the next largest retail US employer, Target (366K employees, again mostly unskilled).

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/global500/2008/snapshots/2255.html

Posted by voltaic on Thursday September 18, 2008 @ 04:43pm
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Well, I'm not just signing everything. I am checking out my sisters bills and what the divorce is giving her and making sure she can make the payments. You wouldn't help your brother like that if you could?

I probably wouldn't co-sign anything for him, no. But I would definitely help him plan it all out and even make a personal loan.

Banks aren't the problem, investment firms are. And name one for-profit business that doesn't put the mighty fucking dollar first.

Let me rephrase... Yes, every business exists to make a profit, yes, but not everyone will do that to the extent of HURTING their workers, society or being overly fucking greedy about it. Want an example, here's one I read about last week: http://www.economist.com/obituary/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12000749 .
Republican or not, globalisation was lost on him. He insisted that his shirts were manufactured in America. Sure, it cost more than getting them sewn in China; but if Chinese people made them, that would take jobs from Americans and mean they couldn?t buy his shirts anyway..

We've been sending jobs to China and India for twenty years and look at the national disaster it has wrought upon the USA: an unemployment rate near record lows, GDP that has grown every quarter for the last 15+ years (except four, two caused by 9/11), and entirely new industries bringing their own job and wealth creation.

I find it difficult to get riled up about the 50 or maybe 100 jobs that would have been lost if Jack's shirt business had outsourced overseas, when his shirts would than have been cheaper to sell to many more. That's what trade is, you know. You are a computer specialist and you trade your service (through a neutral medium called "money") to buy food from someone else who is a specialist at producing food. Why don't you grow your own goddamn food? Because it's cheaper to outsource it to a farmer. How about sewing your own clothes? Same thing. Building your own car? Again.

Do you wish that RAM and hard drives cost $100 a Gb again so that we could bring the manufacturing back to domestic unionized labor? Do you think other nations would continue to buy that RAM and hard drive from us when they could get it cheaper elsewhere? So you bring the jobs back, but then lose them because the business fails? Look at Detroit auto makers and how 110% fucked they are because of their labor unions. It's the same fuckin' thing, bro. Same fuckin' thing.

That's the stuff I'm talking about. Taking care of your works and not just paying the CEO/board over and over and over again. Big business has a responsibility that extends beyond the spreadsheets. I'm sure other small companies are doing this (it tends to stop once you get a board and VC/investors start looking for a way to milk something for all it's worth).

What, specifically, is a business's responsibility beyond the financial spreadsheets? Why is a business responsible to its workers for anything more than an agreed upon paycheck and benefits?

Maybe I'm part of the problem then.. maybe all this is good for us and I just don't understand.

If you don't live beyond your means, have twice your income on credit cards, and live in a house that you never NEVER could have afforded to begin with, then no my friend you are not part of the problem.

But from my POV.. this is a mess. Let the whole think fall, let people start over rebuild and try and do it again, maybe they will learn from their mistakes, maybe not. But the only this that all this business saving does is delay the failure and put more billions of tax and budget money that we don't have, but that money to places that we can't us, don't benefit most americans and still only leads to continued failure of other systems. Great way to spend the money.

Doesn't benefit most Americans? What do you think would happen if, say, the five largest investment institutions failed with no external saving (government or otherwise)? Let me phrase it another way: since the biggest two failures (Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac) were government institutions to begin with, chartered to help the average American buy a house, and then run into the ground by government incompetants so that far fewer people can get a house: what do you propose? Honest question here. Because I'm all for going back to some Teddy Roosevelt rugged individualism, but ain't too many motherfuckers going to put me into the white house.

Posted by Caliber on Thursday September 18, 2008 @ 05:21pm
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Because I'm all for going back to some Teddy Roosevelt rugged individualism, but ain't too many motherfuckers going to put me into the white house.

I'll buy you a ticket if you give me a seat on your cabinet ;)

Posted by voltaic on Thursday September 18, 2008 @ 10:04pm
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I'll buy you a ticket if you give me a seat on your cabinet ;)

How does Secretary of Defense sound?

Posted by Caliber on Friday September 19, 2008 @ 12:15am
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I'll buy you a ticket if you give me a seat on your cabinet ;)

How does Secretary of Defense sound?

Motherfucker I'm killin' ev'raybahday...!! :D

Posted by voltaic on Friday September 19, 2008 @ 08:47am
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My administration promotes this foreign policy. You're hired!

Posted by Caliber on Friday September 19, 2008 @ 03:23pm
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My administration promotes this foreign policy. You're hired!

sweet, wheres the big red shiny CANDY LIKE button...?

Posted by Stealth on Tuesday August 31, 2010 @ 10:44am
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My administration promotes this foreign policy. You're hired!

sweet, wheres the big red shiny CANDY LIKE button...?

It's the RED one shaped like an X.

Posted by Caliber on Thursday September 18, 2008 @ 11:02am
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so I'm co-signing

Fuck that.

I'm not to tickled at the idea of the all the banks going under. that's what they get for always putting the mighty fucking dollar first.

Banks aren't the problem, investment firms are. And name one for-profit business that doesn't put the mighty fucking dollar first.

that is what's wrong with our fucking system.

There are many things wrong with the system, which contributed to what is going on right now. My friend, I'm here to tell you that Joe Fucking Citizen is public enemy #1. And I don't mean in some college sophomore "get out the vote" way, either.

I love being part of the problem